Ungraded to Graded - Part 5 posted by Sheck_Shiek
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8 posts in this topic

235 posts

Did you find the repair?

 

I could not so I called PMG. Sometimes the graders leave notes as to what was repaired. The phone agent told me there was a tear "in the middle of the note at the top" that was repaired. Only then did I locate the repair. The arrow shows. If you had the note in hand prior to the sale and looked it over with a microscope or high magnification and knew what to look for, you would have seen the repair. I looked the note over before grading and did not see it. I left "neutral" feedback to the seller and he threw a fit. He harassed me until I finally clicked a link that he sent to change neutral to positive. Just to get him to quit bugging me. I pointed out it wasn't premium paper and it wasn't near uncirculated and the color of the scan had been whitened...a common Ebay currency trick. Whiten the scan. Is that right?? Was I justified to leave him neutral feedback, or was I just a poorly informed buyer and he simply was doing good business??

17488.jpg

 

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25 posts

I would have left the neutral, if not negative for deceptive practices!!

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86 posts

You should've given negative and stuck to your guns. He clearly went out of his way to make it look nicer than it really was. Now there's less chance that the next person will have fair warning.

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Since that is a relatively big money note, it should have been all there for the money you paid. With Track and Price, free for 30 days, you can track down transactions including serial numbers.

 

Neutral/negative after a return request would be the way I would go, if he didn't know and offered to refund original purchase plus grading fee, I would not leave problem feedback. It is fraud and misrepresentation to sell problem material without disclosure! Who was the seller?? By the way the PCGS currency forum is very active on these issues.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/HGR-1923-5-Silver-Cert-RARE-Lincoln-Porthole-Near-UNCIRCULATED-/381637732357?hash=item58db61a805&nma=true&si=WaOmlUaFbDkHu59fPWTC63oeN84%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557

Edited by Nutmeg Coin

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125 posts

I immediately sent it to be graded. I have bought from HGR before and was satisfied albeit I always bought graded notes. It was my partly fault for not closely examining the bill although I probably would not have seen the repair anyway it is done so well. He never offered money back plus grading fee. He just sent email after email saying"grading services can't be a reliable 3rd party judge" with pictures of notes graded and ungraded showing how services can be wrong by a large margin...ya dee ya dee...I didn't respond to that nonsense. If they are not somewhat reliable, why have notes graded? I told him to leave me alone since he was trying to prove he was correct and not trying to make the customer happy. High Grade Rarities. He whitens notes, over describes them. If he were an expert he would have known this was a repair and it would grade NET. I certainly won't give him any more business. Selling ungraded, high dollar notes is a crack in the system I am sure is exploited. I am sure rare, multi-thousand dollar notes are inspected by a number of eyes very carefully and as I have said in past posts, it is worth more ungraded since a relative inexperienced buyer will pay a premium for a note based on a 100% feedback and the seller's description and never get it graded. I dare say, any note over $1,500 that is ungraded and is on a no reserve auction is almost certainly going to grade "NET" The sellers know it, it's happened with every single note I have paid over $12-1300 for...EVERY SINGLE NOTE. Look at my PMG note picture and all the NET notes were purchased ungraded by inexperience or graded by another snake oil sales man B-I-S-S-E-L that grades his own notes and resales them.

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150 posts

There are too many good, reputable dealers to waste money, aggravation and energy on those who don't play by the rules. Of course people can find exceptions in terms of standards of grading which proves nothing. Grading services offer a guarantee. This dealer apparently doesn't offer any type of guarantee, just his word which is terribly biased. There are a lot of sellers like that selling problem raw material relying on suckers to fuel their business. Unethical business practices are why we have lots of legal recourse in the US, in the states and through other regulatory agencies that need to be alerted or they won't do their jobs. I would also report the seller and link the report with as much evidence as you can provide.

 

Dealers like Mr. Lindquist, Don Kelly, Tom Denly and others who are member of paper money organizations would never play games like that. One way to detect problems on notes is to use an l.e.d. flashlight in a darker than usual room from behind the note.

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Thanks for the info. Always appreciated. Another great story. I only learned this after I got Track and Price. A guy that grades his own notes under "CGC" was kicked off EBay like all third parties except PMG and PCGS. He sold me a 1905 Fr-1180 in his holder that was CGC 35 PQ for premium paper like the EPQ and PPQ for the two main services. He even sent along a book he wrote on grading standards. He bragged how he is far more conservative than PMG and PCGS. After EBay kicked off all but PMG and PCGS I had the note regraded with PMG and it came back 30 NET "Retouched" Then I got Track and Price a year later and the note had previously been graded PCGS at 30 PPQ!!!

 

I freaked out. The guy took the note out of a legit holder, retouched it and put it in his holder at 5 points higher. Needless to say how that matters on a Technicolor. I lost the PPQ, gained a NET because of Honest Joe. I e-mailed him and asked if he took the note out of a legitimate PCGS 30PPQ holder and "retouched" it.

 

Guess what? He never replied. He even blocked me. After I shelled out over 15K with him. His book is full of platitudes of how spot gamesters. My wife noted that in his book, the page that was going to describe how to spot altered notes was torn out!!! A brand new book he sent me that he wrote and a page was mysteriously torn out of his own book. As an honest guy, I just cringe when I think of how he schooled me. As I have mentioned on this Forum, I should have known a guy grading, plus buying and selling was a Conflict of Interest I should have been wary of. But that was in my early naive days and I literally got RETOUCHED myself by the likes of moneytreeme, jimrob and HGR. I told each of these guys I am a long term collector and once I find the right dealer who does me right, over the next 20 years he will have my business. Each time, the creeps would rather take the short term profit than the long term customer. I am always looking for names of truly honest people that don't pretend like they are honest.

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150 posts

Or buy directly at auction from companies like Lynn Knight, SB or Heritage. Lynn Knight just had several auctions where many quality pieces went cheaper than expected, and that is how you can get real deals. Or have one of the leading currency dealers put the notes you are looking for on their watch list and notify you with matches as they present themselves. Many dealers will also work on a 10% or so margin if they bid on something you want.

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