The Shiek

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Same bank Prez at different banks

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Sheik Sheck

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Happy New Year! I stumbled upon Lawrence and his exquisite signature he was not only representing the bank I collect (Ch#252), but also apparently lived in the neighboring state. I assume bank presidents were equally mobile in the early 20th century, looking for the best job. Looks like he lived in both Pennsylvania and West Virginia. 

 

Lawerence_TwoBanks.jpg

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Looks like L.S. was just the vice president in Wheeling.  Is that a date back or value back?  If a value back it's 1915 or later.  Also if a value back it has the old backing info 'bonds or other securities' (which is quite common).  But this can help pin down the years served as VP.  I'm not sure how to use the treasury SN to find when the note was printed.

If you get PMG to grade, consider the variety option where you can have the names of the bank officers added to the back of the holder.  PMG told me they would do this, but you may want to confirm with a call.  Something like penned signatures of Cashier X and Vice President Y.  I'll check my Kelly database to see if  officers of the N Exchange B of Wheeling were recorded.

If you have Kelly database, you can search by officer name or by city...  If not, I'll let you know next week :-)  Neat find!

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That is correct apparently. The Brown Back is from Heritage Archives that also has Lawrence Sander's signature. As with the date back, someone sketched in a "v" indicating he was the Vice President. But he was VP on the brown back and date back. I don't have the Kelley reference but I am curious over what time span he was VP to be able to be on a BB and DB. Also are sigs. from his Presidency at Pittsburgh's FNB.BB.thumb.jpg.44c62fedc071a855afdaa7c81f259697.jpg1497891215_5_Collage_Ch252.thumb.jpg.bcc687dcf661f49506d6eacad3c98d76.jpg

Lawerence_Sigs.jpg

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The N Exchange B of Wheeling, WV Charter 5164, Kelly shows they Chartered 12/29/1898 while their 2d charter notes display 12/16/1898.  Officers according to Kelly were:
Year President Cashier
1900 JN Vance  Lawrence E Sands
1910 JN Vance  CW Jeffers
1915 John L Dickey CW Jeffers
1929 JR Naylor CW Jeffers
1931 JR Naylor LJ Yaeger
Kelly does not list Vice Presidents or Assistant Cashiers.  Also, the Kelly database doesn't have bank officers on Pittsburgh banks.  The database covers Ohio well and since Wheeling sticks up between Ohio and PA and was a key site for crossing the Ohio River, maybe that's why it made the database of bank officers.

Both Wheeling brown backs depicted are from after 1903 (based on the serial number font) and before 1908.  The series 1882 date back is after 1908 and before 1915.  Ch. 5164 also issued value backs (after 1915 of course), but of the two in Heritage's archives, both had president Dickey's signature..

The Second NB of Pittsburgh was organized 2/13/1864 and began using the 2d title (First Second NB) 4/21/1913 and 3d title (FNB at Pittsburgh) 1/18/1918.  Sands signed as president on First Second NB series 1902 Date Backs.  I couldn't find his signature on Second NB Red seals or the one series 1902 Date Back in Heritage's archives.  So it would seem Sands was Cashier and later Vice President in Wheeling from about 1898 to at least 1908 and then President of Pittsburgh Ch. 252 from sometime after 1913 through at least 1925 (Aug. 22, 1925, the Treasury number was replaced by a second instance of the issuing bank’s serial number and Sands appears as President on such a note with SN A72199 (so that's 1 million plus another 72,199 notes) and is eventually replaced I'd guess very near 1928 or 9, but before small size nationals appear).  That's at least 30 years in banking!

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Thanks ddr70.  Lawrence must have been a dedicated banker. I don't have the Wheeling note so I wonder how the "v" for vice was printed. I got the below table from the Society of Paper Money Collectors web site for Ch 5164 and below that is for Ch 252. The first table shows L.E. Sands was cashier in '05 then no record from '06 - '12 and then President in '13 - '14, then President of Ch 252 from 1914-1927.  Was he V.P. in those 6 years and signing on behalf of Vance? Any other examples of bank executives moving to another with signatures on multiple banks? Or perhaps starting as a cashier and promoted to President then moving to another bank? I imagine this is a fairly rare occurrence. Interesting history. 

Years Cashier President
1899-1904 Lawrence E. Sands J. N. Vance
1905-1905 L. E. Sands J. N. Vance
1906-1912 C. W. Jeffers J. N. Vance
1913-1914 C. W. Jeffers Lawrence E. Sands
1915-1921 C. W. Jeffers John L. Dickey
1922-1928 C. W. Jeffers J. L. Dickey
1929-1929 C. W. Jeffers J. R. Naylor
1930-1930 L. J. Yargar J. R. Naylor
1931-1935 L. J. Yaegar J. R. Naylor

 

 

 

Bank Officer Pairs (Pollock)
Years Cashier President
1864-1864 John E. Patterson George E. Warner
1864-1864 John E. Patterson Griswold E. Warner
1865-1866 Charles H. Riggs Griswold E. Warner
1867-1867 Robert J. Stoney G. E. Warner
1868-1868 Rob't J. Stoney G. E. Warner
1869-1869 Robert J. Stoney G. E. Warner
1870-1870 Robt. J. Stoney G. E. Warner
1871-1871 Robt. J. Stoney George S. Head
1872-1872 Robt. J. Stoney Geo. S. Head
1873-1874 Jas. H. Willock Geo. S. Head
1875-1875 J. H. Willock Geo. S. Head
1876-1877 Jas. H. Willock Geo. S. Head
1878-1881 James H. Willock George S. Head
1882-1886 James H. Willock William Cooper
1887-1887 Thomas W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1888-1888 Thomas W. Welsh, Jr. Jas. H. Willock
1889-1891 Thomas W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1892-1892 T. W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1893-1895 T. W. Welsh, Jr. J. H. Willock
1896-1896 T. W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1897-1897 T. W. Welsh, Jr. Jas. H. Willock
1898-1898 T. W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1899-1899 Thomas W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1900-1903 T. W. Welsh, Jr. Jas. H. Willock
1904-1904 Thomas W. Welsh, Jr. James H. Willock
1905-1905 James M. Young James H. Willock
1906-1908 J. M. Young H. C. Bughman
1909-1909 Jas. M. Young H. C. Bughman
1910-1911 J. M. Young H. C. Bughman
1912-1912 J. M. Young W. S. Kuhn
1914-1914 F. F. Brooks Lawrence E. Sands
1915-1915 Frank F. Brooks Lawrence E. Sands
1916-1917 F. F. Brooks Lawrence E. Sands
1918-1921 C. C. Taylor Lawrence E. Sands
1922-1927 C. C. Taylor L. E. Sands
1928-1932 C. C. Taylor F. F. Brooks
1933-1935 J. H. Arthur F. F. Brooks

 

 

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Excellent tip--I'll have to check out SPMC's site for bank officers.  You learn something everyday.  I also thought Jas. was for Jason, but looks like it's used for James.  :)  As far as a V in front of president, they typically were just penned in as a "v" or "vice" as I have several such examples.  Recall my Fostoria, OH note from a previous journal entry (your finds at a local coin shop) where that bank had a stamp made for their VP to routinely use when signing notes.

I find this all very interesting, but, no doubt, much more remains to be learned about Sands-if, indeed, anyone ever recorded details of his personal life. If time permits this would make an interesting story in Paper Money, the journal of the Society of Paper Money Collectors.

Edited by ddr70

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I knew Jas. was short for James (although it never made sense to me) however I didn't realize that I should be using Prest. instead of Prez :) Since we now know of two banks that altered the Prest. signature line to Vice Prest. or VP, perhaps this was more widely applied than we may be aware. Which makes me wonder if there was any specific guidance from the Fed or banks were at liberty to substitute the VP for the Prest. I plan on looking into Mr. Sands a little deeper since I have so many notes with his illustrious signature!

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Series 1882 notes use Prest. with the t superscripted.  I'm inspired to make a Nationals signature set with Vice Prez signed notes.  OK, here it is: 

sig.jpg

https://notes.www.collectors-society.com/registry/notes/ViewPersonalCollection.aspx?UserCollectionID=1440

From the National Bank Act (ch. 58, 12 Stat. 665; February 25, 1863), originally known as the National Currency Act
Section 11. The association (the national bank really) were "to choose one of their number as president of such association and to appoint a cashier and such other officers and agents as their business may require; and to remove such president, cashier officers and agents at pleasure, and appoint others in their place;"
Section 18 stipulates that the notes have written or engraved signatures of the treasurer and register "and shall also express upon their face the promise of the association receiving the same, to pay on demand, attested by the signatures of the president, or vice-president, and cashier;"  So here we find the vice-president may sign, but I don't see an Assistant Cashier, although I haven't followed the statute forward to see if it was modified to allow for an assistant cashier's signature.  Then again, the officers were chosen and replaced by the 'association', so who would know who the cashier was at any given instance.  My favorite note in the signature set above is the SN1 $5 red seal from Catawissa, PA with signatures of the Assistant Cashier and Vice President.

Edited by ddr70

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That is a fantastic set! Thanks for posting the link. I enjoy looking at other collectors nationals. Did you acquire just by visual inspection of the notes to see the 'v.' or 'vice'? Did you do prior research using a database? I would be curious how you were able to spot the notes. Also, I noticed you have a couple of serial number 1 notes. Very nice Catawissa note. I saw a few SN #1's at FUN but didn't pull the trigger. On another note, I noticed that Ch #252 had only C.C. Taylor as the cashier, also with a prominent signature but there was a series of notes that his signature was clearly not the same as other stamped or engraved versions. The attached file shows the commonly seen C.C. on the bottom photo and the mystery C.C. on the note with the regional 'E'. Another mystery!

CC_Taylor.jpg

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Use of the geographical (regional) sort letter stopped in 1924, so the (E)252 note is older.  You can also tell it's older because of the treasury SN (ED block in current terminology is well before NH) and bank SN is smaller.  Also, the plate letters (F is earlier than HH).  The newer note with the HH plate had the signatures engraved on the plates.  The older note was likely sent out to a printer to have the signatures added and potentially the quality on the Cashier's signature suffered or that's the signature that was provided by CC Taylor.  Interesting difference in Taylor's signature!  As nice as it is in later years I suspect the printer didn't do a good job, just a good enough job.  Sand's initial (E) is quite different too. 

As for the VP notes, some had the information in the description of the notes and some I just noticed browsing notes.  HA just sold a $5 BB on a New York, NY The NB of Commerce in NY, Ch. 733, with J. Pierpont Morgan's signature as VP.  I think that's a tough signature to come by. I don't know of a database of VP signatures.  To my knowledge, they were not recorded in the annual comptroller of the treasury reports (just cashier and President).

I also like the RADART SN N702073H... I see that more often than a Radar SN.  It has one extra digit--a 3--too many. B| 

The other note is a RADRA SN 87687.  I should start another signature set on these... :insane:

Edited by ddr70

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